I discovered this article by accident, long time ago. I find it interesting because of the bitterness, the loneliness, the endemic sexism and racism expressed by the author. *I* am NOT the author of this. As an insight into a personality, maybe is invaluable to writers as a yardstick of cultural racism in America. The sweeping stereotypes...well, read for yourself and then cast your vote. RUSSIAN WOMEN Date: 27 Feb 1995, 08:00:04 GMT


I married two Russian women: We have only had free movement between Russia and America for about 5 years or so, so having married two Russian women was quite a trick, and not something I would do again.

To determine if Russian women will make good wives the first thing that one should look at is the Russian culture. One might think that any kind of up bringing can be over come. One often sees people from the ghettoes doing quite well in life, even when they were in the ghetto their entire childhood. However, I don't think this is true of Russian women. I believe that they will never over come their Russian up bringing. The basic reason for this is simply that they don't want to over come their up bringing, while those who come from the ghettoes usually want to change to get the better things in life that they desire. The Russian women think that the way they are is absolutely ideal, and it never occurs to them that there are better ways in life.

In 1992 I traveled to Russia where I met my first Russian wife. I spent several weeks in Moscow and traveled to a number of other Russian cities. I was invited to many Russian homes to eat and to stay the night. I was able to see the Russian culture first hand. They were anxious to show me how they lived. The Russian people now love Americans more than any other nationality. No matter where I went I was welcome. In restaurants where there were lines, I was always taken to the head of the line, if they found out that I was American. When I had occasion to go to the doctor, I was taken beyond the line to a private room for treatment (no charge for treatment and medicine). It was fabulous treatment for an average American who had never been a celebrity. I thought that maybe Russian wives might like me the same.

When I married my Russian wives it had never occurred to me to look at the differences in our cultures. Had I looked, I might not have been so impulsive. So let us look at the important cultural differences that will affect a marriage directly. In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public. Lovers do not hold hands in public. They do not put their arms around one another. Mothers and Fathers never hug or kiss their children except maybe on New Year's night. But this is not really the problem, the real problem is that they are taught never to show affection and emotion.

In Russia there is no such thing as double beds. Husbands and wives never sleep together. Not even one family out of a thousand has double beds. All sleep in separate single beds. Russian women have never even considered sleeping night after night with a husband.

You have no idea how deeply rooted these teachings and customs have become. Russia is more like another planet than another country. No other country in the world are people taught to disregard affection and love like in Russia. For 80 years the communists controlled Russia. No one was safe. All were taught that they must tattle tale on one another about anything that was wrong. A wife could tell on her husband, if he wasn't doing something right. Quite often he would just never come home (he was shot). To lose a spouse in Russia wasn't the same as here. The government paid for everything. If the husband never comes home, so what, the wife still gets paid. Children were encourage to tattle tale on their parents. If they said something that was not acceptable to the KGB, the parent simply didn't come home (again, they were shot).

Love in Russia really became extinct. I know, we say love is a natural thing and anyone can fall in love. That may be true, but in a society that does not recognize love as valuable, one soon learns to take care of himself and to not get too close to anyone. One must be careful not to get too attached to someone, one day he might not return.

When the KGB was closed less than 10 years ago, the reporters were shown into the KGB building. In one large room in that building was a list of 10 million Russians that had been shot by the KGB. These people were simply listed as "Enemies of the State." None were given a trial of any kind. The person at the local KGB office simply said, "Shoot this guy," and he was shot. It wasn't even a hearing. Someone tattled on his neighbor for any one of a hundred things and the local KGB shot him. The idea of course, was to make the society a better place, but it didn't work that way.

So how does this all affect Russian women. Well they are trained from birth to not show love and affection. They know that showing too much love could even result in being shot. To love someone who doesn't come home one evening can break your heart. Best not to love much at all. Russian women often talk about love, but unfortunately and sadly, they do not know what love is. They will certainly never demonstrate their love with kisses and hugs. They might for a few days, but never for any period of time. They don't even like kisses and hugs.

I met many Russian women in Russia. In fact, during my stay there I constantly had at least two Russian women with me and sometimes three. They were easy to meet once they knew I was American. They were anxious to please. They even asked me for sex. The idea behind all the attention and sex was that they wanted to come to America. The Russian woman that I finally brought back with me did just that. She pretended that she just couldn't resist me. She told me she wanted me and then went with me to my hotel room. Others did the same.

Sex with a Russian woman beyond about the third time is about like making love to a dead horse. They don't take part except to lay still and let it happen. I had several Russian women tell me that they lived with their husbands for 10 years without ever kissing them. They had the dead horse sex, but they never kissed their husbands in the process of sex. You may think that could happen in isolated cases, but I talked to enough Russian women and saw enough of them to tell you that it is normal. Kissing, you see, is showing affection and love, and that is not part of a Communist State. Of course, communism is dead, and the Russians hate communism, but it will be years before they understand that the fear of love is a communist thing.

Russian men are all macho. They all must be brave. Showing love for a woman is a weakness. They talk love, but they don't show it. Many Russian men are so brave (macho) that they don't look both ways when crossing the street. Looking isn't macho. Thus many get killed by cars. Of course, the men in the cars are macho too, thus they pretend they don't see the people on foot. Macho for men is the thing in Russia. Macho sex is to take the woman by the hand, push her on the bed, and make love to her, and then go back out and drink another drink. Women in Russia expect it.

Russian women think it is normal to not show love. Thus you will not be able to change them. They don't want to change. They want to remain the same. They know that kissing and hugs and other demonstrations of love are dangerous things. Of course, they will demonstrate affection at first. They even do that in Russia in courtship, to a small extent, but when the one week honeymoon is over, don't expect kisses or hugs. As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it. You are expected to climb on top and do your thing as often as you like, but don't expect them to take part other than to do what they are told. If you are like 80% of the American men, that might be OK, but if you want a woman who shows love and affection during sex and who sometimes kisses you and even touches you, then don't try a Russian wife.

Look at Russia now. They are killing one another as I write this letter. Over 110,000,000 Russians have been killed by Russians in the last 80 years. Can you see how a country can be devoid of love. That much killing of one's own country men brings about men and women who show very little and can have very little love. For 150 years in America we have not killed one another on vast scales like Russia. The killing and the communist teaching simply changes the way one looks at and handles love.

Russian ladies are almost all very beautiful. The cold climate and the wet weather produces beautiful women. They are 99% all of the white race. They are not oriental. Russians drive on the right side of the road. Their light switches turn light on in the up position. Their school year is the same as ours. For what ever reason a greater percentage of their customs follow ours than most other countries in the world.

So do you want a Russian woman for a wife? It depends upon what you want. If you want a beautiful woman who is a good show piece then go for it. But if you are expecting any gratitude for your spending money and time then forget it. They believe that their husbands owe it all to them. The state gave them their money, it didn't come from their husbands. So they expected the husband to do all those other things. They will expect you to do everything and buy them everything and they will seldom, if ever say thank you. They never say please, or thank you. It makes them feel degraded to do such a thing.

You can train them to do say thanks, but never expect a kiss or a hug when you come home.

Any Russian woman who was brought up within the borders of Russia will be the way I have described here. I am sorry that all that killing and terrible things took place, and I feel sorry for all those people who will never know real love or even real affection. I feel sorry for all those children who never receive kisses from their parents, but feeling sorry would not make me marry another Russian woman. My life only become tolerable with both of my Russian wives when I quit trying to create any kind of love. As long as I furnished the shelter, food, clothing, TV, and other niceties everything was fine, but never ask for a kiss. She will prefer to sleep in a separate bed like her parents did and like all Russians do. Russian women will sleep with you if you insist, but all married people in Russia sleep in separate beds, and so if you marry a Russian woman, her parents slept in separate beds, so she will prefer separate beds.

A Russian woman will live with you, will take what you give her, will never say thanks unless you train her to and will show little affection, but will demonstrate no affection after the first two or three weeks. She will live taking everything you give only as a friend might, except the friend would show gratitude. You can have a very pleasant relationship if you are willing to have only a friendly relationship and are willing to finance her totally plus you can have sex, and in her own way she may even love you a little and she will even tell you so, but she will certainly never demonstrate it.

As far as my two Russian wives were concerned our sex was completely unacceptable. After the first three weeks, it was expected that when I wanted sex she would just lay their and I would do all the action. But although I never had a sexual problem my whole life, I could not for the life of me just make sex that way. I expected at least a few kisses during sex. When I wouldn't perform both wives asked me to sleep in another bed as they couldn't sleep with someone who didn't give them good sex. When I suggested a marriage counselor and sexual consultant the first wife flatly refused, and the second one agreed, but refused to accompany me on the day of the appointment. When I brought her literature back from the counselor, she refused to read it.

It is extremely unfortunate that sex is so repressed in Russia. When I was there many people told me that it was wrong to have sex when I was not married to a woman. They explained to me that any woman that came to my hotel room, even if she were single, was subject to being arrested and taken to jail. There are no judges or juries. There is only the local police. If someone calls and says that you are having sex in a hotel room and are not married the local police can come arrest you if they wish, and that's what has happened for the last 80 years. The police make their own decision on what to do with you. So you see, sex has been badly repressed in Russia. I assume that the communists were trying to keep the population down, but what ever the reason it does exist.

When you try to create a loving home with a Russian woman she feels that you put her at risk. She feels threatened. She feels that it is wrong. Somewhere in her subconscious mind she is afraid that to show you love will bring the wrath of the communists. She cannot tolerate it. The fact that the communists no longer exist means nothing to her subconscious mind. She will become angry, upset, and impossible to live with. It is very sad that it is this way, but that's the way it is. The Russians are beginning to dig their way out of this situation, but at this time any American man who marries a Russian woman is probably biting off a great deal more than he can chew.

If one did marry a Russian woman he should have her agree to at least a year of counseling after the marriage. Russian women are like alcoholics, they will have to realize that something is wrong before they can be helped and I doubt that a Russian woman will ever realize that. In her mind there is too much at stake. It's cultures in direct conflict, yours and hers.

So now you know. Good luck.

Gerry

Well i'm sure these opinions are going to get a strong reaction or maybe everyone will go quiet !! , but i'm sure there are going to be some good debates on this one, i can tell you from experience's though that some of whats he writes has an element of fact but its is dated. Although he does repeat himself a lot as if he is trying to enforce opinion, maybe he was unlucky and found two bad examples of Russian women and he is now bitter, who's to say he was a good husband and these ladys had their reason for not loving him as he would wish? Why did he marry a second Russian wife who was the same as the first ?? he's a slow learner.

Maybe the authors opinion is not as applicable to today's younger women as i do believe attitudes are changing and certainly i would imagine women from the more westernised big cities of Russia are maybe not so different from women in any large city in Europe. But speaking with my many Russian friends( age group 24-44 ) who live in Russia they will confirm some of these traits for sure and i know my wife does not easily do affection in public in Russia, but she is more relaxed about it outside of Russia, so i can identify with some points and can imagine its how things could have been or are in certain places. But most of us here i think have limited experience of actually living in and understanding Real Russia, i think Westerners who have only been to Moscow have not experienced Real Russia , you must go to the smaller cities.


I think it would be good to get some balanced opinions from any Russian men out there or ladys who have or do live outside of Russia , can they look back and see situations as described in this article and will they admit to it, is it common for older Russian woman to behave in this way or just a minority. Some of what he writes i think of course is not true, all women love their children and of course many love their husbands. About sharing beds i know that this can be true in the older houses which have many rooms, but most Russians live in Tiny apartments and only have Divans, there is no room for seperate beds so i would say the majority do sleep together, and all new houses and flats i have seen always have bedrooms with double beds so i guess the authors experiences are based on 20 years ago and not today.


I know from all the weeks and months i have lived in my particular part of Russia people do live, think and behave very differently than those from the UK and only when you can have a little understanding can you start to relax and enjoy your time there and relationships with your Russian partner. I have many friends there and i understand them quite well, there are many situations that i must simply accept and i see behaviour that would not be accepted in the UK but is quite normal in Russia, they just do things differently.

With regards to the article in the Original Post, it has been a long time since read such a load of tosh.


Now let's look at a few issues here. OK I can almost understand somebody making a mistake and marrying a woman that does not know how to show affection, but I cannot understand somebody who makes the same mistake twice, a saying comes to mind.

"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

.As I have stated on a different thread (on this board) start reading the discussion from here viewtopic.php?p=2562#p2562


Admittedly the article that is being discussed was written in 1995 when conditions may have been different but from my experience in order for the article to resemble the truth then the changes would have to have been very drastic and even in Russia such drastic changes are impossible.

As I have stated I have watched family videos taken in Russia during the Soviet Period and after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the emotions that family members show towards each other are true emotions. I will accept that the videos are of family occasions parties, picnics and such other events but the closeness that is self evident in the "home videos" is there for everybody to see.

I will further add that when we are walking in the street my fiancée almost always has got her arm through mine, the only time that she keeps her distance is when I wear my red "CCCP" baseball hat.


I wonder why has she fallen out of love with me or is it a different reason?
Answers on a PostCard please




In my opinion the original author is a very, very sad twisted individual who would not know how to recognise emotion even if it bit him in the derriere.

I have spent a bit of time in the FSU during the past few years, have met many men and women for various reasons and have been intimate with a few of the women. May I remind everybody that this article was written over 15 years ago and of course circumstances have changed but I will make some comments about this topic.

1. Quote:
   In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public.
   There is a lot of truth is it, especially for the over 40's generation but things are changed now, especially with the younger generation. No I haven't seen any older generation couples holding hands in public as I see here.
2. Quote:
   But this is not really the problem, the real problem is that they are taught never to show affection and emotion.
   There is some truth in it!
3. Quote:
   Russian women often talk about love, but unfortunately and sadly, they do not know what love is.
   There is some truth in it but you can say the same for many women over here!
4. Quote:
   Russian women think it is normal to not show love. Thus you will not be able to change them. They don't want to change
   No that is not correct. Russian women do change a lot and when they come over here they do show alot of affection, love and tender care to their men and especially to their children! They do fall in love and yes sometimes going OTT showing their love and attention to their men.
5. Quote:
   As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it. You are expected to climb on and do your thing as often as you like, but don't expect them to take part other than to do what they are told. If you are like 80% of the American men, that might be OK, but if you want a woman who shows love and affection
   during sex and who sometimes kisses you and even touches you, then don't try a Russian wife.
   I don't know about American women but I know Russian women like sex and plenty of it. Taking part in it of course they do, given the right living circumstances, but then the OP maybe was blind to this fact, ignorant or he was not a good lover and very selfish. It is not the car's fault when the driver is bad! Most women and many men, initially are a little unsure how to proceed, naturally, during the period of exploration, but I can say Russian women are fast learner's and have no problem showing love affection and kissing as well been adventurous during sex.
6. Quote:
   Russian ladies are almost all very beautiful.
   That is total rubbish and not true. All Russian women do take pride and care of themselves, all the time, because of the Demographics and lack of plentiful good marriage material men and the competition is fearce. The fact is that most Western men are attracted to Russian Women dressed sexily in a mini skirt and high hills or boots, but take away all that additional window dressing and you will find that most of these "attractive" Russian women are no better than a plain Jane, especially outside the Major cities, Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev, Odessa etc. On the other hand don't forget Russia is 150+ million people and Ukraine 45 +million excluding the other FSU countries and for sure you will find plenty of very slim, beautiful and attractive ladies there, naturally.
7. Quote:
   But if you are expecting any gratitude for your spending money and time then forget it. They believe that their husbands (boyfriends) owe it all to them. They will expect you to do everything and buy them everything and they will seldom, if ever say thanks. They never say please, or thanks. It makes them feel degraded to do such a thing.
   Unfortunately this comment appears to be close to 100% true.
8. Quote:
   You can train them to do say thanks, but never expect a kiss or a hug when you come home.
   It is hard to forget an old habit but they do learn to say "Please and Thank you" but when coming home you do get hugs and kisses and they do that religiously as it is part of their make up and show of their love feelings! Don't forget also the inspection routine before you go out as they want their man to look his best!

These are some of my observations in connection with the OP "Russian women - Do they make good wives?".

In my view the article has many truths in it and there are many more points to discuss but for now I have no more free time. Maybe sometime later.

Lucky,
From my experiences in Russia I disagree with some of your comments regarding the topic.
Before I start I do fully appreciate that the Original article was written 1n 1995 and that the scenario in Russia has changed since then.

For starters when I am walking with my fiancée it is very usual for her to have her arm through mine unless I have managed to get into her "bad-books", in fact I use the walking arm in arm as an indicator to let me know if I am in trouble (and neither of us will see 40 again in this lifetime).

I totally disagree. It is my experience that emotion is shown in public and now I am not only saying that about my fiancée, I am also including her friends, her family and her parents.

Here I will agree with you that everybody is different and you can find individuals that are not capable of understanding love in any country and in any culture.

Here I agree 100% with your comment.

I personally blame the car for my bad driving :lol:
Apart from that I agree with your comments.

Once again I agree with your comments. I do think that FSU ladies do pay mor attention to thei appearance than the women of Western Europe and North America but just paying attention to hoe one looks does not make one beautiful and FSU ladies come in all shapes and sizes; just like ladies from elsewhere in the world.

Sorry but here I disagree with you, Alla, her mother and her friends most definitely know how to express gratitude.

What are we talking about here "train them" a statement like that makes me see red, you train a dog, you train a monkey you do not train a human being.
Lucky I am aware that "You can train them" are not your words.
[ontopic.jpg] Between Alla and me if one of us forgets to say thank you it is not Alla but me who has the poor manners and I can say the same for her mother and her family and friends.




I have discussed the original article with another member on this forum, he has accused Alla and me of being the exception that proves the rule.
My reply to him was along the lines of "maybe but then I can only comment on my own experiences".
I will state categorically that according to my experience of interacting with Russians in Russia the article is a load of rubbish.
I do though accept that other people may have different experiences and therefore different views and we are all entitled to our views.

Regarding the original article as far as I am concerned the original article was written by a twisted, sad and sick individual.

Yannis, haven't you got anything better to do than post this drivel?

The original article is f**king rubbish and an insult to anyone's intelligence.

If you can't find anything worthwhile to say, say nothing.

Malcolm

Yes experienced Russian travellers may say its rubbish but i'm sure many people have read this article and are wondering WTF !!, my bubbles been burst, everyone says how fantastic and perfect Russian women are and here is a major contradiction to my beliefs, what is the truth about Russian Women ?? well the reality is that they are not that much different from any women any where, but maybe they have a stronger ability to deal with a harder life than most and have a harder shell to crack. But i think whatever people write it allows us all through debate to understand some of the different behaviours there, there are many situations in the past which i have read wrong because i did not understand Russia, i am far more comfortable there now that i know how it ticks and a lot of what i learn't was from these forums.

Yannis did not write this article and should not be criticised for publishing it here, its not as interesting to me as a feature about a city in Russia or some historical fact but its still something about Russia for people to debate. Not everybody who reads this site is an expert on Russia and maybe people start out on this journey find posts like this relevant, if there is healthy debate and fact. Yannis has every right to put on here what he wants, you may have a right to an opinion about what he rights but you have no right telling him what he can and cannot put on here, you are a guest as i am, Yannis posted this so people have the opportunity to to agree or not agree, i presume from your response Malcolm that you think its all crap and untrue. But you are an experienced Russian traveller, you must have more to say than its all rubbish.

As for insulting somebodys intelligence thats a joke, an intelligent person will make what he wants, believe what he wants, so how does it insult somebodys intelligence, thats just one of those stupid remarks in the English language to try and put somebody in a corner, it means sod all, say something important !! I Agree that maybe a very bitter person wrote this and its not the best constructed article but ask any Russian man who has experience of many Russian women and he will see somethings in this article that he will agree on. Everybody in the west who has had dealings with people from Russia get the impression that they are very miserable and rude people, which they are in public, but we all know that in private they are some of the most friendly and sociable people you will ever meet, its all about undesrtanding all sides, Russian people and women are far more complex to us Westerners than women form the UK who are also sometimes dificult to understand

When i was in Russia a few weeks ago a visited an old Russian friend of mine Larrisa, she is a pensioner and was my Russian teacher, she has a fascination of England and it makes her day if a visit. She is a very educated and travelled person within the former Soviet Union. She is the most honest and open Russian person i have met, her mind is not conditioned by the soviet way, she will openly tell you that Russian people are rude and selfish, she said to me that at least 60% of Russian people cannot be trusted, i had to disagree with her i said 90% , but this really supprised me and i do not think it is so bad, Russians are desperate for money and will take anything they can, but i must say there is a lot of Gypsy's and immigrants in this town, she descibed them as bad people and she did not have good hope for the future of her country or society, she said its a sinking ship. To me it looks like a sinking ship with everything in decay, but Larrisa is not the only Russian to tell me to be careful there, most of my Russian friends all say be very careful. But maybe they believe that everything is perfect in the west and we have no crime and we will not be street wise and an easy target.

In 4 years and many months of living in my wifes town i have never seen trouble, never been cheated or had an argument , i do not see all these dangers allthough i know all the rumors and what to be careful of, of course i experience very rude and miserable shop assistants, and i am sure they are lots of bandits there because of poverty, any place where there is little money will have many problems, but maybe the small time bandits keep clear of me because i am English and stand out in the street because of the way i dress and the fact i smile and maybe they think i have good connections (which i do) and it will be big trouble for them.

Although there was this one time that i upset my wife because i would not give her good sex 5 times a night as all Russian women expect so she threatened to cut my head off and said i was an English pig and she would turn me into Shashlik !! never upset a Russian women and give her everything you have and more and she will happily take it

But just to protect myself even more (my karate training only helps so much) i enrolled on a pistol training course down the local Police station !! I have a friend who is a very senior officer in the Russian Federal Security Police Охрана and he gave me some lessons, just waiting for my new Klashnikov to arrive now. It will come in Handy the next time a see a wild Кабан in the street or market.

OK, here's some more.

The entire arcticle is the work of a deluded fantasist. His claims of what Russians are like are complete fabrications from start to finish.

For instance:
"The Russian people now love Americans more than any other nationality."
Absolute rubbish with no basis in reality.

"No matter where I went I was welcome. In restaurants where there were lines, I was always taken to the head of the line, if they found out that I was American. When I had occasion to go to the doctor, I was taken beyond the line to a private room for treatment (no charge for treatment and medicine). It was fabulous treatment for an average American who had never been a celebrity. I thought that maybe Russian wives might like me the same."

Complete fantasy. Never seen or heard of anything like this happening and neither has my wife or her mother.

"In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public."

Absolute nonsense.


"Lovers do not hold hands in public. They do not put their arms around one another."

Yes they do.

""Mothers and Fathers never hug or kiss their children except maybe on New Year's night."

Where does he get this ridiculous nonsense from?

""But this is not really the problem, the real problem is that they are taught never to show affection and emotion."

Bollocks. The real problem is this idiot's grasp on reality.


""In Russia there is no such thing as double beds. Husbands and wives never sleep together. Not even one family out of a thousand has double beds. All sleep in separate single beds. Russian women have never even considered sleeping night after night with a husband."

Total and utter fantasy. I asked my mother-in law about this and she laughed so much she nearly had a coronary.


""Russia is more like another planet than another country. No other country in the world are people taught to disregard affection and love like in Russia."

Russia isn't another planet but this geezer is certainly an alien. His scribblings are the ravings of a lunatic.

"I met many Russian women in Russia. In fact, during my stay there I constantly had at least two Russian women with me and sometimes three. They were easy to meet once they knew I was American. They were anxious to please. They even asked me for sex. The idea behind all the attention and sex was that they wanted to come to America. The Russian woman that I finally brought back with me did just that. She pretended that she just couldn't resist me. She told me she wanted me and then went with me to my hotel room. Others did the same.

More risible fantasy. He can't be serious if he's actually asking me to believe that all these gorgeous, sex-mad Russian women wanted to f**k him because he's American.


And on and on it goes...complete and utter fantasy and insulting fantasy at that. It's insulting to Russians, it's insulting to Americans and it's especially insulting to me because I'm married to a Russian woman.

I'll tell you what I think. I don't believe this moron has been anywhere near Russia. I don't believe he's been married to two Russian women and I don't believe a word of what he says.


You, on the other hand, may believe what you like.

That may be your opinion Malcolm but when I looked at the voting it seems like most don't agree with you.

I haven't voted yet but when I do it won't be that the article is rubbish. I can't say I agree that it is totally correct but there is some truth to some parts of it but as I have said before RW were not made with a cookie cutter and there are a lot of differences between individual women.