All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

"How accurate you think this article is today?"
Poll ended at 15 Nov 2010 11:43
This article is rubbish and very offensive towards Russia and Russians people. 45%  45%  [ 5 ]
This article is of poor quality and about 25% correct. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
This article is interesting and about 50% correct. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
This article is informative and about 75% correct. 36%  36%  [ 4 ]
This article is good and almost 100% correct. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#51  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 05:34 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 23 Jan 2020 07:24
Posts: 807
Location: UK
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: UK
Times_to_FSU: Many times
Rasboinik wrote:
I accept that the question was not addressed to me but I will answer it anyway.
Quote:
Are you telling me that women are the same all over the world


I will start with a mathematical formula.
Image

  • Point one. - Women are women therefore women are the same all over the world.
  • Point two. - There are cultural differences between any county that you care to name and any other country that you care to name.
  • Point three. - People from a certain culture do not always find it easy to understand people from a different culture.
  • Point four. - People from a certain culture tend to behave according to their cultural norms.
  • Point five. - People means people, both sexes, therefore the term people includes men and women
    ------------------------
  • Conclusion one.
    There are mine fields that need to be negotiated when dealing with a woman no matter what nationality.
  • Conclusion two.
    There is no harm in informing people about a culture that they will be exposing themselves to.
  • Conclusion three.
    Had any body stated that the original article is the type of trash that can be found on the internet and should be read with severe trepidation then I would have agreed with such comments.
  • Conclusion four.
    If I was about to embark on such an adventure and after reading such trash, I would have run a mile, especially if people that have experience told me that, that is what I should expect.
Quote:
and no cultural differences exist between Russian and Western cultures?
Of course there are cultural differences. I depends though how the cultural differences are portrayed.
Quote:
If that is not the case then why should we stop talking about Russian women?
I don't think that anybody is saying that talking about Russians (in this case women) is wrong, what I think that is being said is that trashing women by quoting any old negative bullsh*t that is posted on the internet and then attempting to portray the rubbish as the truth is:
  1. offensive
  2. counter productive
  3. misleading
  4. derogatory
  5. insulting

Quote:
You may not find the conversation helpful but other people do and knowing in advance what they are getting into, in my view, will help them to make the right choice and have better chances to create a happy family.
If I was about to embark on such an adventure then I would ask myself, why would I want to spend any time, let alone have a family with:
  1. A woman who does not know how to show affection.
  2. A woman that will never show any appreciation.
  3. A woman who is as sexually exciting as a dead horse.
  4. A woman who will refuse to sleep in the same bed as me.
  5. a woman who is cold and calculating and only cares about material things.

Quote:
Like it or lump it we all had to make a choice, when we were looking for a wife material..... and having a little information about their culture, living conditions and few other things, it assisted us to make the best choice as human possible.

Not all characters are the same, as you very well know, and finding the right match is not an easy task!

I will fully agree that discussing the cultural differences can be very valuable to some one who is just starting out on the adventure of a cross cultural relationship.

Here I will ask if anybody thinks that defending such a misleading drivel is of benefit to anybody?


You just proved with your long post the main reason that justify wiz's decision to post such article!

It is clear that his intention was to provoke long discussions ..... and on the way, with the various member's posts, all the misconceptions, derogative remarks and untruths about Russian women to be disproved and shown that are wrong.

Such articles do appear around the net and the various fora, so it's better to talk about them and clear up the negative impressions that create.


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#52  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 09:04 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 30 Dec 2020 14:27
Posts: 3641
Location: Surrey UK
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
RW_here_since: July 2008
Times_to_FSU: Too many to remember
Malcolm said:

  1. wiz wrote:
    Are you telling me that women are the same all over the world and no cultural differences exist between Russian and Western cultures?
    No, I'm not saying that at all.
    It's the culture that makes the difference, not the woman.
  2. Quote:
    If that is not the case then why should we stop talking about Russian women?
    I never said you shouldn't.
  3. Quote:
    You may not find the conversation helpful but other people do and knowing in advance what they are getting into, in my view, will help them to make the right choice and have better chances to create a happy family.
    There's nothing helpful about posting stupid articles that only continue the tedious stereotyping of Russian women as little more than prostitutes who are all looking for rich Americans to fuc*k in exchange for a passport to better life.
  4. Quote:
    Like it or lump it we all had to make a choice, when we were looking for a wife material..... and having a little information about their culture, living conditions and few other things, it assisted us to make the best choice as human possible.
    Sorry, I disagree. You made a conscious decision to search out a Russian woman and you did all kinds of research to help you make that choice. Others have done the same, and that's fine. But some of us didn't go looking for "wife material", as you so disparagingly put it, as I have already said. So please don't tar us all with the same brush.
  5. Quote:
    Not all characters are the same, as you very well know, and finding the right match is not an easy task!
    I wouldn't claim to know anything about finding the right match for the simple reason that I've never tried. I just try deal with people as I find them.
  6. Quote:
    I don't know anything about your history, regarding your relationship with Anna, as you have not posted anything...... but I and many others have posted details of our adventure..... and I am sure some other people have found useful information on our Travel Reports, as I did too reading other peoples reports!
    I don't deny that there is much useful information to be had from the various members posts about their relationships, their travel experiences and their experiences with various visa issues and this is one of the main reasons why people come here. I'm happy to pass on what knowledge I have as regards travel and visas, and to a certain extent relationships but not about my personal relationship. What I reveal on a public forum is my prerogative.

My replies:

  1. So we agree that women are not exactly the same all over the world and their culture influence their outlook in life and their behaviour!

  2. We agree

  3. You know of course that I posted this article to generate, as you said already, a reaction and my aim wasn't only to create traffic but also to give an opportunity to our experienced members to dispel and disprove such comments that you and other's have pointed out.

    Additionally with this article as a base we all would add our own experiences and views about Russia, life there and Russian women. While we know that there are certain women, there, who will act so crudely, as you said, there are also other women who apart from looking to improve their standard of life also look to find a partner abroad due to the demographic imbalance that exist in Russia today!

  4. What so disparaging using the expression "wife material"?

    Isn't a concious decision when we are single to go out visiting places where we can have fun, meet people from the opposite sex and also hope to meet the right person to share our life, or you still believe on match making, as Julian jokingly asked you?

    What so different in your behaviour from other males?

  5. So you don't know the expression we are getting on well and make a nice pair?

  6. Finally we agree partially on something.

    Did I ever said that your private life it's not your prerogative?

    Any how some of us have the confidence to speak openly on the net and show our faces too but there are many others who don't, for their own reasons!

    BTW the image on my avatar is my ugly mug, as also in many photos I have posted around these boards. [veryhappy.gif]

_________________
.
Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#53  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 11:56 
Offline
Been there - Done That & Got the T-shirt
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jun 2010
Last Visit: 13 Feb 2013 11:20
Posts: 131
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
Times_to_FSU: more than 10
Talk about trying to turn defeat into victory...
You'd make a good spin doctor Yannis.

[rolf.gif]


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#54  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 12:23 
Offline
Hero Member

Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Last Visit: 18 Oct 2014 23:34
Posts: 1234
Location: Mainly Sakhalin Island (Russian Far East)
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia/UK
RW_here_since: She lives in Russia
Times_to_FSU: Ya ne mogu soschitatʹ
Luckyspin wrote:
Rasboinik wrote:
Here I will ask if anybody thinks that defending such a misleading drivel is of benefit to anybody?
You just proved with your long post the main reason that justify wiz's decision to post such article!

It is clear that his intention was to provoke long discussions ..... and on the way, with the various member's posts, all the misconceptions, derogative remarks and untruths about Russian women to be disproved and shown that are wrong.

Such articles do appear around the net and the various fora, so it's better to talk about them and clear up the negative impressions that create.

I have never said that the article should not have been posted.

What dumbfounds me is that anybody with a modicum of real knowledge about Russia can agree with any of the points raised in the original article.

_________________
If told to jump always ask why and never how high..Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#55  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 12:33 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 30 Dec 2020 14:27
Posts: 3641
Location: Surrey UK
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
RW_here_since: July 2008
Times_to_FSU: Too many to remember
Malcolm wrote:
Talk about trying to turn defeat into victory...

You'd make a good spin doctor Yannis.

[rolf.gif]
Haven't I said in the past that I will join your party when you try to be elected as PM?

[rolf.gif]

_________________
.
Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#56  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 12:34 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 30 Dec 2020 14:27
Posts: 3641
Location: Surrey UK
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
RW_here_since: July 2008
Times_to_FSU: Too many to remember
Raffi

You are back to your original statement........ that the article is a total BS! [tonque.gif]

We have moved on in our discussion but now have no time to go back and find the points you have agreed...... [sarcastic.gif]

_________________
.
Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#57  PostPosted: 11 Nov 2010 14:34 
Offline
Hero Member

Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Last Visit: 18 Oct 2014 23:34
Posts: 1234
Location: Mainly Sakhalin Island (Russian Far East)
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia/UK
RW_here_since: She lives in Russia
Times_to_FSU: Ya ne mogu soschitatʹ
Yannis,
I will start by quoting Malcolm.
Malcolm wrote:
You'd make a good spin doctor Yannis.
Yannis,
Only a spin-doctor will attempt to defend the indefensible.
wiz wrote:
We have moved on in our discussion but now have no time to go back and find the points you have agreed...... [sarcastic.gif]
Moved on?

Have I ever changed my opinion about the original article ?

Do you not think that by now it is time for you to admit that the article does not bear any resemblance to reality?

Then we can move on and discuss why people should not take such articles as gospel.

_________________
If told to jump always ask why and never how high..Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#58  PostPosted: 12 Nov 2010 08:41 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 30 Dec 2020 14:27
Posts: 3641
Location: Surrey UK
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
RW_here_since: July 2008
Times_to_FSU: Too many to remember
Rasboinik wrote:
Only a spin-doctor will attempt to defend the indefensible.

Have I ever changed my opinion about the original article ?

Do you not think that by now it is time for you to admit that the article does not bear any resemblance to reality?

Then we can move on and discuss why people should not take such articles as gospel.

I am not a spin-doctor neither defend every single comment that the OP has made. I said before that few of his comments apply even today.

You on the other hand made a Blank statement that everything is Bull Sh..t and stuck to it like a little dog that doesn't let go of the bone in his mouth! [tonque.gif]

Sorry but I have seen several things to be true even today and your reality is different from mine. May I suggest you go back and read other peoples comments, like Julian's and you will find him confirming certain things too. [sarcastic.gif]

I am fully aware that you will continue your crusade to prove everything I post wrong, regarding this article, so I think it's time to ask Moby to be back to keep you company! [tonque.gif]

Finally here are few comments and snippets by the OP which I think are applicable even today, and will not spent more time searching yours and his post to prove the reality of today, as you put it!

Quote:
In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public. Lovers do not hold hands in public. They do not put their arms around one another.
True even today.

Quote:
They even asked me for sex. The idea behind all the attention and sex was that they wanted to come to America. The Russian woman that I finally brought back with me did just that. She pretended that she just couldn't resist me. She told me she wanted me and then went with me to my hotel room. Others did the same.
Very true.
Many women there who advertised themselves on dating sites do use sex to achieve their aims. Read around these boards and you will find many examples.

You don’t have to believe me but many of our members, like Turbo, Shadow, Markje, Sparkee and other can give you plenty of examples.

Quote:
As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it.
True

Quote:
They will expect you to do everything and buy them everything and they will seldom, if ever say thank you. They never say please, or thank you.
Russian women are looking (they say in their profiles) for a strong man and they mean, financially secure, a man to make the decisions for them, and able to provide and buy them and the family what they want! Nothing is wrong with that as the same applies over here too.

It is true that please and thank you is not part of their everyday vocabulary and takes times for them to get use to it!

Quote:
It is extremely unfortunate that sex is so repressed in Russia.
….any woman that came to my hotel room, even if she were single, was subject to being arrested and taken to jail
Very true.
No sex education and no magazines talking openly about sexual matters as can be found in the west!

No single woman easily will accept to come to your hotel room because of the way they are treated by the security guards, who only allow the prostitutes that sitting in the lobby of the hotel to visit clients and get their commission.

Is that enough for you to admit that certain things apply still today in Russia?

[underchair.gif] [bat.gif]
[drinks.gif]

_________________
.
Image


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#59  PostPosted: 12 Nov 2010 11:32 
Offline
Been there - Done That & Got the T-shirt
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jun 2010
Last Visit: 13 Feb 2013 11:20
Posts: 131
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia
Times_to_FSU: more than 10
wiz wrote:

Here are few comments and snippets by the OP which I think are applicable even today, and will not spent more time searching yours and his post to prove the reality of today, as you put it!


Quote:
In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public. Lovers do not hold hands in public. They do not put their arms around one another.

True even today.


Absolute rubbish. I see people showing affection all the time in Russia. Couples holding hands, couples with their arms around each other, couples hugging and kissing etc. I see it every day in Moscow and I saw it every day in St. Petersburg and other towns I've visited. Your claim is nonsense and you have no evidence to back it up.

Quote:
They even asked me for sex. The idea behind all the attention and sex was that they wanted to come to America. The Russian woman that I finally brought back with me did just that. She pretended that she just couldn't resist me. She told me she wanted me and then went with me to my hotel room. Others did the same.

Very true.
Many women there who advertised themselves on dating sites do use sex to achieve their aims. Read around these boards and you will find many examples.


No it isn't, you just think it is because you have an unfortunate imagination.
You want to tar every woman with the same brush just because a few smart women take some sad losers to the cleaners?
This doesn't just apply to Russian women, I'm certain that there are women from all over the world who use dating agencies with the express purpose of scamming men. But then I also regularly read about men who con wealthy women of a certain age out of millions. They ususally call themselves Baron Louis DeVille Rothschild-Bourbon of Saxe-Coburg, or some such epithet, when their real identity is Graham Tweddle, an unemployed gigolo and practising onanist from Catford.

Quote:
You don’t have to believe me but many of our members, like Turbo, Shadow, Markje, Sparkee and other can give you plenty of examples.


As I said before, any bloke who gets his wallet emptied in the hope of getting sex from a woman they meet on a dating site deserves no sympathy. But it doesn't mean Russian women should be eternally portrayed as prostitutes.

Quote:
As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it.

True


I think this just demonstrates wishful thinking on your part. Unless you can provide empirical evidence to substantiate your risible claim.


Quote:
They will expect you to do everything and buy them everything and they will seldom, if ever say thank you. They never say please, or thank you.

Russian women are looking (they say in their profiles) for a strong man and they mean, financially secure, a man to make the decisions for them, and able to provide and buy them and the family what they want! Nothing is wrong with that as the same applies over here too.


This applies everywhere, not just in Russia

Quote:
It is true that please and thank you is not part of their everyday vocabulary and takes times for them to get use to it!


I don't accept this at all. My wife and her family and friends have exceptional manners and always say please and thank you. Again, you tar everyone with the same brush. Of course there are still people who don't smile or say please or thank you, especially in beaurocratic and official jobs but it's getting better. But that doesn't mean Russian women in general are ill-mannered or rude.

Quote:
It is extremely unfortunate that sex is so repressed in Russia.
….any woman that came to my hotel room, even if she were single, was subject to being arrested and taken to jail

Very true.


No it isn't and you have no evidence to prove this stupid nonsense. This bloke is a fantasist and I'm beggining to think you're following his lead.
Women being arrested for going to someone's hotel room??
Utter garbage. This is beyond laughable.
It may have been true during Stalin's period but not now.

Quote:
No sex education and no magazines talking openly about sexual matters as can be found in the west!


Yes there is and yes there are. Look in any magazine kiosk and you'll find any number of magazines where sex is openly discussed. In fact, they're the same magazines we have in the West.
Sex education is now taught in schools.

Quote:
No single woman easily will accept to come to your hotel room because of the way they are treated by the security guards, who only allow the prostitutes that sitting in the lobby of the hotel to visit clients and get their commission.


All I can say is you must frequent some very dodgy hotels.

Quote:
Is that enough for you to admit that certain things apply still today in Russia?


Nope. You've got to present a much more compelling and persuasive argument re-inforced with proper empirical evidence rather than relying on the fantasies generated by your delusional imagination



To any new readers who may be confused by all this piffle about Russian women, I will say only this:
Russian women are the same as women from anywhere else except that they're Russian ,and as such, they will appear different to British or American women only inasmuch as they are not British or American. There is a difference between Russian culture and British and American culture, which is why Russian women appear different.
Do not pay any attention to the idiotic article posted under the heading of "Do Russian women make good wives?" it is the work of a febrile fantasist who has probably never even met a Russian woman.

Q.E.D.


 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Russian women - Do they make good wives?
Post Number:#60  PostPosted: 12 Nov 2010 11:33 
Offline
Hero Member

Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Last Visit: 18 Oct 2014 23:34
Posts: 1234
Location: Mainly Sakhalin Island (Russian Far East)
Gender: Male
Status: Married
Her/His Country: Russia/UK
RW_here_since: She lives in Russia
Times_to_FSU: Ya ne mogu soschitatʹ
Quote:
Quote:
In Russia it is unacceptable to show any kind of affection in public. Lovers do not hold hands in public. They do not put their arms around one another.
True even today.
That statement is untrue.
Please don't misuse the expression.
The exception proves the rule" to try and prove that you are right.
Because it is your misconceptions that provide the exceptions.

Quote:
Quote:
They even asked me for sex. The idea behind all the attention and sex was that they wanted to come to America. The Russian woman that I finally brought back with me did just that. She pretended that she just couldn't resist me. She told me she wanted me and then went with me to my hotel room. Others did the same.
Very true.
Many women there who advertised themselves on dating sites do use sex to achieve their aims. Read around these boards and you will find many examples.

You don’t have to believe me but many of our members, like Turbo, Shadow, Markje, Sparkee and other can give you plenty of examples.
I accept that there are women that will use their body to achieve their financial goals.
There is a name for that type of woman.
I accept that there can be a name change depending on whether payment is demanded upfront or whether it is put on a tab to be paid later.
The original article is trying to imply that this description applies to all the women in Russia.

I sincerely hope that you are not implying that the majority of the women in Russia are like that.
This is very important so I will repeat it.
I sincerely hope that you are not implying that the majority of the women in Russia are like that.


Quote:
Quote:
As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it.
True
Quoting a partial quote and pretending that the quote is complete is an act of desperation. Here is the quote of the full paragraph from the original article,
Quote:
Russian women think it is normal to not show love. Thus you will not be able to change them. They don't want to change. They want to remain the same. They know that kissing and hugs and other demonstrations of love are dangerous things. Of course, they will demonstrate affection at first. They even do that in Russia in courtship, to a small extent, but when the one week honeymoon is over, don't expect kisses or hugs. As far as sex is concerned, they like it, and they want it. You are expected to climb on top and do your thing as often as you like, but don't expect them to take part other than to do what they are told. If you are like 80% of the American men, that might be OK, but if you want a woman who shows love and affection during sex and who sometimes kisses you and even touches you, then don't try a Russian wife.
with the pathetic one line that you used in your quote highlighted (colour change) just to emphasise that the statement that was made only so that it could then be ripped apart, torn down and trashed.

Quote:
Quote:
They will expect you to do everything and buy them everything and they will seldom, if ever say thank you. They never say please, or thank you.

Russian women are looking (they say in their profiles) for a strong man and they mean, financially secure, a man to make the decisions for them, and able to provide and buy them and the family what they want! Nothing is wrong with that as the same applies over here too.

It is true that please and thank you is not part of their everyday vocabulary and takes times for them to get use to it!
That statement is pure bullsh*t, I have even seen mothers ask their children "Have you said Thank You" and some of those mothers have never been involved with someone from a non Russian culture.


Quote:
Quote:
It is extremely unfortunate that sex is so repressed in Russia.
….any woman that came to my hotel room, even if she were single, was subject to being arrested and taken to jail
Very true.
No sex education and no magazines talking openly about sexual matters as can be found in the west!

No single woman easily will accept to come to your hotel room because of the way they are treated by the security guards, who only allow the prostitutes that sitting in the lobby of the hotel to visit clients and get their commission.

Is that enough for you to admit that certain things apply still today in Russia?
Again a partial quote and twisted to suit your argument.
I will address this in two parts.

From the original article.
"arrested and taken to jail" sorry but that statement is a figment of imagination of the author of the original article furthermore he contradicts himself on one hand he states that women were inviting themselves to his hotel room and on the other hand he states that they were putting themselves at risk of being incarcerated.

Your comments.
  • The sexual repression that you are commenting about whether true or false (more on this later) has nothing to do with the sexual repression that is inferred to in the original article. please compare like for like and do not make imbalanced comparisons.
  • Sadly there is an element of truth in your comment (absolutely nothing to do with the original article) about the shenanigans of the security goons in hotels in Russia, I cannot comment on all hotels because I have only ever invited a woman to visit me in my room in one hotel and yes at some point I had a problem with the hotel security.
    Still there is a huge difference between hotel security attempting to extort money and someone being arrested by the police and taken to prison.
With reference to sex education, if you are referring to sex education taught in schools then you are so far of the mark that it is not even funny.
With reference to magazines talking openly about sex, because I do not read such magazines I will have to accept your word that such magazines exist in the west and that they do not exist in the east.
Even so this has absolutely nothing to do with the original article.

wiz wrote:
I think it's time to ask Moby to be back
If you wish to invite Moby back then why don't you do so.
wiz wrote:
I said before that few of his comments apply even today.
And you will act like a Cyprus donkey. [tonque.gif]

wiz wrote:
Is that enough for you to admit that certain things apply still today in Russia?
I will have to agree with you that the original article does state that there are cultural differences between America and Russia.

Do you think that, that amazing revelation in the original article is sufficient for me to accept that the original article portrays the truth about Russia today?

Please answer this specific question with a yes or a no.

Apart from that from the original article the list of things that apply today to is:
In Russia there are
  • women
  • men
  • parents
  • children
  • beds
  • cars
  • hotels
  • in the hotel there is a room (at least one)
  • The author of the article thinks that communism is dead
  • The author of the article has experience of sex with dead horses

_________________
If told to jump always ask why and never how high..Image


 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB