The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War

Rubicon · Post Number:**#31** **Posted:** 13 Jul 2011 00:38

wiz wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

It could be argued, and I regularly do, that the second world war (let's forget the great patriotic war nonsense) was a direct result of Stalin's desire to take complete control of Poland by enetering into the pact with Hitler. Had the Soviet Union not joined forces with Hitler it's debatable whether Germany would have had the resources to commence their occupation of Poland as early as 1939. Don't forget that the Soviet Union also invaded Poland shortly after the Germans. This is never mentioned by Russians who make a habit of conveniently forgetting anything that doesn't fit their warped view of history, particularly the atrocities that were carried out by the Red Army. The massacre of Polish officers at Katyn being a particularly grim example.
So I'm afraid I take a dim view of all the Russian claims about how they won the war when it was they who were instrumental in starting it.

As for the USA, while it's perfectly true that the war would have been lost without them, it's also perfectly true that they made a business out of it and profited hugely from being at war - mainly at the expense of Great Britain. In many ways it was the making of the USA and the end of Great Britain as a superpower.

May I also remind you of the Holodomor

in Ukraine. [sad.gif]

Stalin's Genocide in Ukraine.

.

It is very clear the the Communistic party that was running the USSR conveniently forgotten certain details and rewritten the history, to teach and brainwash the people who even today remain ignorant of such important events as the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact carving up Europe. When talking to most Russians you realise the extent of such mass brainwash that has taken place because even today they believe it was ONLY Russia who fought Germany. [sarcastic.gif]

Totally agree with your other comments. [clap.gif]

Glad to see that someone has the courage to post about the Holod, or Holodmor. Russia will probably never ever admit to what they did to Ukrainians which is very much to their detriment. People are sick and tired of totalitarian type regimes which try to re-write history. Germany was forced to admit to the Holocaust but it was to their benefit that for decades they have acknowledged that dark chapter in their past and dealt with it. In a recent poll of where people all over the world would like to visit Germany was number one in the world for being a popular well liked country. I cannot remember where Russia and Ukraine ranked but I do not think they were in the top 10. Interestingly Israel ranked at the bottom.

Russia only recently admitted to the Katyn Forest massacre 65 years after the fact. One really wonders what other state secrets are hidden away in the vaults of the Kremlin and protected from release by the likes of V. Putin.

Rubicon · Post Number:**#32** **Posted:** 13 Jul 2011 02:15

Olga wrote:

wiz wrote:

The other day watching the 9th May on RT TV one of the commentators said:
"It was Russia that was fighting in Europe where the Allies came late into the war and were fighting in Africa!" [surprised.gif]

I did not see the whole parade, so I cannot confirm. But there is nothing like that in Medvedev's speech. And you know that the Allies were also marching on the Red Square.

Here is a speech by Putin in 2005
I guess you can translate it well

"Дорогие друзья! Мы никогда не делили Победу на свою и чужую. И всегда будем помнить помощь союзников — Соединенных Штатов Америки, Великобритании, Франции, других государств антигитлеровской коалиции, немецких и итальянских антифашистов. Сегодня мы отдаем дань мужеству всех европейцев, оказавших сопротивление нацизму. Но мы также знаем, что Советский Союз потерял за эти годы войны десятки миллионов своих граждан. А среди воинов, погибших на полях сражений, были люди всех национальностей бывшего СССР."

Talking to some of our Russian veterans I remember they just were saying if Americans would enter the World War Two a year earlier...

Britain's Propaganda War on America
http://www.historynet.com/britains-prop ... merica.htm

Robert's father and uncles were veterans of the World War II (3 in the Air-force, 2 in the Navy, 2 in the Marine). I remember our dinners together with our father and three uncles when they recalled their memories, and they never denied that the USSR had more massive attacks from Hitler's Army.

Regarding Putin's comments that Russia lost more soldiers....Nobody disputes that, but the fact is that the real reason Russia lost more soldiers is because Stalin was an arse who killed all the best officers prior to the war, did not properly prepare for the war, and insisted that his living commanders force hundreds of thousands if not millions of Russian soldiers into suicide attacks against German troops who were initially far better trained and better equipped. It was Stalin and his arrogance and ineptitude that doomed millions of Russian soldiers to their deaths. Then after Stalin so arrogantly and callously lost millions because he would not listen to senior combat officers, Russia had to force millions of untrained civilian men to rush to the front without proper training or supplies. Stalin also deliberately starved to death millions of Ukrainians prior to WWII who could have been used to fight against the German advances into Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. Stalin had also murdered thousands of priest which angered and demoralized the population. Finally Stalin allowed church worship in order to get the church behind the effort. Too little too late; the damage was done BY STALIN. Until guys like V. Putin tell the truth, meaning the WHOLE truth, Russians will still not really understand that THEIR leaders are to blame for THEIR gigantic losses.

Trying to blame America or UK for not entering the war soon enough is pathetic at best. Most Americans did not wish to be entangled into another European affair after we already lost so many men in World War One.

It was Stalin who got you into the mess, and millions of young Russian men and women paid the price for his extreme arrogance and ineptitude. When I was last in Crimea during July 9 and 10 victory celebrations, and while watching all of the media run up to it, I was stuck with the epiphany that Russia lives in the past, while the rest of the world marches on. Russia may have won the "Great Patriotic War", but Germany has moved on and won the economic war.

wiz · Post Number:**#33** **Posted:** 13 Jul 2011 11:01

Malcolm wrote:

It could be argued, and I regularly do, that the second world war (let's forget the great patriotic war nonsense) was a direct result of Stalin's desire to take complete control of Poland by enetering into the pact with Hitler. Had the Soviet Union not joined forces with Hitler it's debatable whether Germany would have had the resources to commence their occupation of Poland as early as 1939. Don't forget that the Soviet Union also invaded Poland shortly after the Germans. This is never mentioned by Russians who make a habit of conveniently forgetting anything that doesn't fit their warped view of history, particularly the atrocities that were carried out by the Red Army. The massacre of Polish officers at Katyn being a particularly grim example.

I think that Stalin's ulterior motives were much larger than just taking over 1/2 Poland and Western Ukraine, when he made the Pack with Germany.

His plan was; supplying the Germany with raw material would help her to fight England and all west European countries and at the end when all fighting sides were exhausted...... Russia he will walk over and take the rest of Europe.

Of course he saw the hesitation by the USA to get involved in another war but he did not anticipated to Churchill's clever nature. He pleaded with America to help and get involved for long time to no avail and when the opportunity arised and he read the de-ciphered message that Japan will attack Perl Harbour..... he avoided warning Roosevelt to make sure that America will join the war! So Stalin's big plan was scuppered.

One more thing is that I hardly heard any Russian making comments about the help they received from the UK and the USA to fight the war! I think Rasboinik makes mention of it!

Rubicon · Post Number:**#34** **Posted:** 13 Jul 2011 17:35

wiz wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

It could be argued, and I regularly do, that the second world war (let's forget the great patriotic war nonsense) was a direct result of Stalin's desire to take complete control of Poland by enetering into the pact with Hitler. Had the Soviet Union not joined forces with Hitler it's debatable whether Germany would have had the resources to commence their occupation of Poland as early as 1939. Don't forget that the Soviet Union also invaded Poland shortly after the Germans. This is never mentioned by Russians who make a habit of conveniently forgetting anything that doesn't fit their warped view of history, particularly the atrocities that were carried out by the Red Army. The massacre of Polish officers at Katyn being a particularly grim example.

I think that Stalin's ulterior motives were much larger than just taking over 1/2 Poland and Western Ukraine, when he made the Pack with Germany.

His plan was; supplying the Germany with raw material would help her to fight England and all west European countries and at the end when all fighting sides were exhausted...... Russia he will walk over and take the rest of Europe.

Of course he saw the hesitation by the USA to get involved in another war but he did not anticipated to Churchill's clever nature. He pleaded with America to help and get involved for long time to no avail and when the opportunity arised and he read the de-ciphered message that Japan will attack Perl Harbour..... he avoided warning Roosevelt to make sure that America will join the war! So Stalin's big plan was scuppered.

One more thing is that I hardly heard any Russian making comments about the help they received from the UK and the USA to fight the war! I think Rasboinik makes mention of it!

Yes, tons of spam and other much needed food, much needed clothing, about 13,000 combat aircraft, munitions, and the most important of all since Soviet trucks were junk--500,000 modern trucks of high quality.

The Soviets literally rode to Berlin on American trucks with Katyushka rockets mounted on back, eating spam.

The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War

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