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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#11  PostPosted: 15 May 2011 16:29 
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Key European points in the Second World War
Part 3

German–Soviet Axis talks October and November 1940
In October and November 1940, German–Soviet Axis talks occurred concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis Power. The negotiations included a two day Berlin conference between Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov, Adolf Hitler and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, followed by both countries trading written proposed agreements. Germany never responded to a November 25, 1940, Soviet proposal leaving the negotiations unresolved.

The German proposed draft agreement.
In the air raid shelter, Ribbentrop gave Molotov a draft agreement with two parts. As had become the practice between the parties, one part was of the agreement that would eventually be made public, while the other contained the secret agreement. The public portion contained an agreement with a ten year term whereby the parties would respect each others natural spheres of interests, while Germany, Italy and Japan would affirm their recognition of existing Soviet borders.

The draft of the secret agreement included the obligation not to join any alliance directed at the four signatories and to assist each other in economic matters. The secret agreement contained a protocol defining the territorial objectives of the four signatories, with Germany laying claims to central Africa, Italy in northern and northeast Africa, Japan in southeast Asia and the Soviet zone to the to ”center south of the national territory of the Soviet Union in the direction of the Indian Ocean.”
A second secret protocol provided that Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union would "liberate" Turkey from its international obligations with Britain to guarantee its borders.

The Axis powers of course always respected a countries neutrality, the Germans even went as far as sending troops to Norway to protect Neutral Norway from the Allies.

The strange aspect of the German "protection" of Norway was that the Norwegian Government escaped from the protectors and set up a "Government in Exile" it the very country that the Germans invaded Neutral Norway to offer protection against.



Molotov stated that the Soviet Union was concerned with several European issues, such as Turkey and Bulgaria, but also the fates of Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece. In addition, the Soviets were also interested in the question of Swedish neutrality and passage out of the Baltic sea. Molotov also sarcastically remarked about why, if England's fate was sealed, they were talking in an air raid shelter.

The Soviet counterproposal agreement.
Stalin told the head of the Comintern (Georgi Dimitrov, a Bulgarian) that, while Germany wants Italy in the Balkans, at the end of the day, it has no choice but to recognize that the Soviets have interests in maintaining Black Sea access and to assure that the Bosporus would not be used against them.

Stalin directed Molotov to draft a new pact with a much greater scope, including the division of Europe, Asia and Africa among the four powers.

On November 25, the same day as the surprise statement of Soviet non-resistance to Bulgaria's joining the Axis and a potential Soviet joining of the Pact, the Soviets offered a counterproposal to Ribbentrop's draft agreement. It began with "The Soviet government is prepared to accept the draft of the Pact of Four Powers on political cooperation and economic mutual assistance." Instead of two secret protocols, Stalin proposed five secret protocols:

  • That German troops depart Finland in exchange for a Soviet guarantee of continued nickel and wood shipments and peace with Finland;
  • That a mutual assistance pact be signed with Bulgaria in the next few months permitting Soviet bases
  • The centre of Soviet territorial domination would be south of Baku and Batumi (ports in modern Azerbaijan and Georgia, south of which are Iraq and Iran)
  • Japanese renunciation of rights to northern Sakhalin oil and coal concessions in exchange for appropriate compensation
  • Affirms that the Soviet-Bulgaria mutual assistance treaty was a political necessity.

The offer came concurrently with massive German-favourable economic offers. The Soviets promised, by May 11, 1941 the delivery of 2.5 million tons of grain—1 million tons above its current obligations. They also promised full compensation for the Volksdeutsche property claims.

The Soviet counter proposal did not receive a reply leading to the events of June 1941.

German operations in the Balkans.

April 1941 Invasion of Yugoslavia
In October 1940, Fascist Italy had attacked Greece only to be forced back into Albania.

German dictator Adolf Hitler recognised the need to go to the aid of his ally, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.

Following agreements with Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria that they would join the Axis, Hitler put pressure on Yugoslavia to join the Tripartite Pact. The Regent, Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, succumbed to this pressure on 25 March 1941. However, this move was deeply unpopular amongst the anti-Axis Serbian public and military. A coup d'état was launched on 27 March 1941 by anti-Paul Serbian military officers, and the Regent was replaced on the throne by King Peter II of Yugoslavia.

Upon hearing news of the coup in Yugoslavia, Hitler called his military advisers to Berlin on 27 March. Hitler took the coup as a personal insult, and was so angered that he was determined "without waiting for possible declarations of loyalty of the new government to destroy Yugoslavia militarily and as a nation.", despite the apparent readiness of the new Yugoslav rulers to maintain Yugoslavia's involvement in the Tripartite Pact.

Hitler did this not only to restore diminished Axis prestige, but also to prevent the United Kingdom from being able to bomb the Romanian oilfields from which Germany obtained most of her oil

April 1941 The battle for Greece
The Battle of Greece (also known as Operation Marita, a battle that occurred on the Greek mainland and in southern Albania. The battle was fought between the Allied (Greece and the British Commonwealth) and Axis (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Bulgaria) forces. With the Battle of Crete and several naval actions, the Battle of Greece is considered part of the wider Aegean component of the Balkans Campaign of World War II.

The Battle of Greece is generally regarded as a continuation of the Greco-Italian War, which began when Italian troops invaded Greece on 28 October 1940. Within weeks, the Italians were driven out of Greece and Greek forces pushed on to occupy much of southern Albania. In March 1941, a major Italian counterattack failed, and Germany was forced to come to the aid of its ally. Operation Marita began on 6 April 1941, with German troops invading Greece through Bulgaria in an effort to secure its southern flank. The combined Greek and British Commonwealth forces fought back with great tenacity, but were vastly outnumbered and out-gunned, and finally collapsed. Athens fell on 27 April. However, the British managed to evacuate about 50,000 troops.
The Greek campaign ended in a quick and complete German victory with the fall of Kalamata in the Peloponnese; it was over within 24 days. Nevertheless, both German and Allied officials have expressed their admiration for the strong resistance of the Greek soldiers.

Some historians regard the German campaign in Greece as decisive in determining the course of World War II, maintaining that it fatally delayed the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union.

Others hold that the campaign had no influence on the launching of Operation Barbarossa as monsoon conditions in the Ukraine would have postponed Axis operations regardless.

Others believed British intervention in Greece as a hopeless undertaking, a "political and sentimental decision" or even a "definite strategic blunder.".

It has also been suggested the British strategy was to create a barrier in Greece, to protect Turkey, the only (neutral) country standing between an Axis block in the Balkans and the oil-rich Middle East.

The British also wanted to control the Eastern part of the Mediterranean in order to hinder the resupply of Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps.

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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#12  PostPosted: 15 May 2011 19:25 
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Malcolm wrote:
Don't forget that the Soviet Union also invaded Poland shortly after the Germans. This is never mentioned by Russians who make a habit of conveniently forgetting anything that doesn't fit their warped view of history, particularly the atrocities that were carried out by the Red Army. The massacre of Polish officers at Katyn being a particularly grim example.


Malcolm,

never say never.
Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11845315

I think it is unfair to paint all the Russians and Soviets with one brush. I don't want to blame the people of the Soviet Era (including my granny whose parents were repressed and she and her sisters being left orphans, cold and hungry had to glorify "Thank you, Comrade Stalin, for our happy childhood") for some of their ignorance as there was not any true information available for general public.

I enjoy reading Magazine World War II
There is an interesting article "Stalin The Puppetmaster"
"Joseph Stalin used charm, wit, and a deadly sense of timing to outmaneuver Churchill and Roosevelt"
http://www.historynet.com/stalin-the-puppetmaster.htm

The term Great Patriotic War refers only to the invasion of the Soviet Union. It was the Second Great Patriotic War. The first one was the French invasion of Russia under Napoleon I.

The Battle of Kursk: Clash of the Tanks
"We must prepare diligently but with discretion and ensure that the best formations, weapons and leaders are positioned at the points of main effort with access to plentiful supplies of ammunition," the führer announced. "Every officer and every man must recognize the significance of this attack. Victory at Kursk must serve as a beacon to the world."
http://www.historynet.com/the-battle-of ... -tanks.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#13  PostPosted: 15 May 2011 20:27 
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Battle of Kursk: Germany's Lost Victory in World War II
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-kur ... war-ii.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#14  PostPosted: 16 May 2011 00:12 
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wiz wrote:
the people who even today remain ignorant of such important events as the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact carving up Europe.


Even during the Soviet Era only a negligent high school student did not know about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. The pact has been mentioned in the history books since it was signed. What kind of information on the Pact was given in the books especially during the Soviet regime is another question. In the Soviet books it was just the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union, and of course a secret protocol was not mentioned as Could the Soviets get more information in the Soviet libraries? I guess you know an answer.

While you are blaming the population of the former USSR in ignorance look the link below
http://hnn.us/articles/1732.html

Regarding brainwashing: read the translation in the video and ask Hanna what actually was said in Russian. [happy.gif]



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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#15  PostPosted: 16 May 2011 13:40 
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Olga

I would much appreciate when you make a quote for something that I wrote you should post the full comment and not only be "selective" thus giving a complete different meaning to what I stated. [sad.gif]
That is what I said!
wiz wrote:
It is very clear that the Communistic party that was running the USSR conveniently forgotten certain details and rewritten the history, to teach and brainwash the people who even today remain ignorant of such important events as the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact carving up Europe. When talking to most Russians you realise the extent of such mass brainwash that has taken place because even today they believe it was ONLY Russia who fought Germany.

In actual fact with your comments you just confirmed what I did say, in the first part of my comments.

The non aggression pact between Germany and Russia was mentioned BUT the important details of the secret pact that was agreed that Russia will supply Germany with raw materials and other supplies, oil etc, between Molotov–Ribbentrop (Stalin and Hitler) thus making Russia an ally of the Nazi's was omitted. The fact that Stalin and Hitler agreed to carve Poland and the Baltic countries it was not known to anybody that I spoke in Russia of certain age......... including my own wife, who watched in amazement the BBC documentary about the pact!

I will go as far to say that not even today many Russians know the truth about events during WWII because they still fed the same tripe of propaganda and only believe that it was ONLY Russia who fought Germany.

The other day watching the 9th May on RT TV one of the commentators said:
"It was Russia that was fighting in Europe where the Allies came late into the war and were fighting in Africa!" [surprised.gif]

To be honest I only met one Russian person, our friend Tatiana in France, an old Russian history teacher who was very knowledgeable and objective in our discussions. Most of the other Russians I met, always take the same line as the propaganda line that they have been fed by Stalin and all other Russian Governments over the years, till now.

BTW regarding the "Katyn massacre", It was November 2010, when the Russian State Duma approved a declaration blaming Stalin and other Soviet officials for having personally ordered the massacre. For over 65+ years the Russian Governments refused to acknowledge the event, which is one more evidence regarding the history distortion to the Russian people and the world at large!

Sorry about the rest of your comments and the video...... I do not give much attention to the crap emanating from the USA and the complete distortion of facts by the commentator regarding the comments made by Cruchev! [sick.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#16  PostPosted: 16 May 2011 22:59 
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wiz wrote:

BTW regarding the "Katyn massacre", It was November 2010, when the Russian State Duma approved a declaration blaming Stalin and other Soviet officials for having personally ordered the massacre. For over 65+ years the Russian Governments refused to acknowledge the event, which is one more evidence regarding the history distortion to the Russian people and the world at large!



What did you expect from the Soviet Government? An investigation on Katyn begun after collapse of USSR. Actually Katyn was acknowledged in 1990 when a criminal proceedings against some Soviet leaders was instituted by the Prosecutor General's Office of the Soviet Union and after Russian Federation. In 1990 the first secret archive documents were passed to the Polish Government

Quote:
In the early spring of 1990, unofficial reports from the Soviet Union indicated that the Soviet Government might acknowledge Stalin's responsibility for the Katyn massacre to mark the 50th anniversary of the killings in April. These rumours proved correct. During President Jaruzelski's official visit to the Soviet Union between 12 and 16 April, Mr. Gorbachev presented him with copies of documentary material concerning Katyn, 102 and on 13 April TASS issued a historic statement:
The question of clarifying the circumstances surrounding the deaths of Polish officers, interned in September 1939, has been raised over a long period of time in meetings between representatives of the Polish and Soviet Governments and more widely in public. Historians from the two countries have been engaged in the thorough research of the Katyn tragedy, including a search for documents. Very recently Soviet archivists and historians have discovered documents concerning Polish soldiers, who were held in the Kozelski, Starobelski and Ostashkovski camps by the Soviet NKVD. It emerges from these documents that in April-May 1940, out of about 15,000 Polish officers, held in these three camps, 394 were transferred to the Gryazovetski [Griazovietz] camp. The remainder were 'handed over' to the NKVD responsible for the Smolensk, Voroshilovograd and Kalinin regions and were never mentionedin NKVD records again.

The archive material as a whole leads to the conclusion that responsibility for the crimes of Katyn belonged to Beria, Merkulov and their assistants. 103 The Soviet side expresses deep regret over the Katyn tragedy and declares that it is one of the most serious crimes of Stalinism. Copies of the discovered documents will be handed over to the Polish side. The search for the archive material will continue.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/our-h ... st-soviet/


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#17  PostPosted: 16 May 2011 23:20 
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While you are talking about Russian ignorance in history.

Britons' ignorance of their heritage consigns history to history
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 53352.html

01/14/2005
Britain's Nazi Mess
Prince Harry Isn't Alone in Needing a History Lesson
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1 ... 39,00.html

History has never been so unpopular
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... ted-events

Why to blame the Soviets who had less information avaliable [wink.gif]


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#18  PostPosted: 17 May 2011 00:08 
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wiz wrote:

The other day watching the 9th May on RT TV one of the commentators said:
"It was Russia that was fighting in Europe where the Allies came late into the war and were fighting in Africa!" [surprised.gif]



I did not see the whole parade, so I cannot confirm. But there is nothing like that in Medvedev's speech. And you know that the Allies were also marching on the Red Square.

Here is a speech by Putin in 2005
I guess you can translate it well

"Дорогие друзья! Мы никогда не делили Победу на свою и чужую. И всегда будем помнить помощь союзников — Соединенных Штатов Америки, Великобритании, Франции, других государств антигитлеровской коалиции, немецких и итальянских антифашистов. Сегодня мы отдаем дань мужеству всех европейцев, оказавших сопротивление нацизму. Но мы также знаем, что Советский Союз потерял за эти годы войны десятки миллионов своих граждан. А среди воинов, погибших на полях сражений, были люди всех национальностей бывшего СССР."

Talking to some of our Russian veterans I remember they just were saying if Americans would enter the World War Two a year earlier...

Britain's Propaganda War on America
http://www.historynet.com/britains-prop ... merica.htm

Robert's father and uncles were veterans of the World War II (3 in the Air-force, 2 in the Navy, 2 in the Marine). I remember our dinners together with our father and three uncles when they recalled their memories, and they never denied that the USSR had more massive attacks from Hitler's Army.


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#19  PostPosted: 17 May 2011 04:40 
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wiz wrote:
The fact that Stalin and Hitler agreed to carve Poland and the Baltic countries it was not known to anybody that I spoke in Russia of certain age......... including my own wife, who watched in amazement the BBC documentary about the pact!


The original documents regarding the pact were found in the Archive of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union only in the middle of the 1990s. The information absolutely became available in the end of 1990s, as there were polemics and debates in the news papers. But the majority in Russia like in any other countries is not interested so much in the history.

wiz wrote:
The other day watching the 9th May on RT TV one of the commentators said:
"It was Russia that was fighting in Europe where the Allies came late into the war and were fighting in Africa!" [surprised.gif]



wiz wrote:
BTW regarding the "Katyn massacre", It was November 2010, when the Russian State Duma approved a declaration blaming Stalin and other Soviet officials for having personally ordered the massacre.


BTW I gave the link to the article in my post [wink.gif]

wiz wrote:
Sorry about the rest of your comments and the video...... I do not give much attention to the crap emanating from the USA and the complete distortion of facts by the commentator regarding the comments made by Cruchev! [sick.gif]


Why not? Are you selectively interested only in Russian propaganda? [tonque.gif] Unfortunately the propaganda has been going for long time from both sides (East -West) it is just part of politics. And unfortunately there always will be "majority" who buys the propaganda.

PS. Wiz, sorry, but you puke too much. Now I have to go to wash myself one more time before I go to bed. [wink.gif]


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 Post subject: Re: The War in Europe - WW2 versus The Great Patriotic War
Post Number:#20  PostPosted: 17 May 2011 04:51 
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Sorry part of my post "vanished" when I tried to fix the bb quote code in my post.

Quote:
The other day watching the 9th May on RT TV one of the commentators said:
"It was Russia that was fighting in Europe where the Allies came late into the war and were fighting in Africa!" [surprised.gif]


I just finished to watch the whole parades 2010 and 2011. There was only one commentator in both parades, and in both parades there was not said nothing close to what you said.

OK. Now time to wash the pukes off [veryhappy.gif]


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