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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#11  PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010 22:19 
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We'll give you back the Marbles if:
Russia returns all the stolen artworks in the Hermitage and all the Holy Ikons are restored to the Church.
The French return the Winged Victory of Samothrace.
The Spanish return all the Gold to the Incas and Aztecs.
The Americans return America to the Native Indians.
The Scots return the all the money their politicians stole from the English.


Let me know when all this happens and I'll have a word with the British Museum for you.

Meanwhile I'll just sit here and wait for the sun to go out.


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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#12  PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010 07:41 
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Malcolm wrote:

Let me know when all this happens and I'll have a word with the British Museum for you.

Meanwhile I'll just sit here and wait for the sun to go out.


If it is a British Museum...........why displaying Greek artifacts.....?

Don't you have any of your own?

Oh Sorry I forgot when the Greeks were building Acropolis.... you were living in caves! [sarcastic.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#13  PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010 11:06 
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wiz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Let me know when all this happens and I'll have a word with the British Museum for you.

Meanwhile I'll just sit here and wait for the sun to go out.


If it is a British Museum...........why displaying Greek artifacts.....?

Don't you have any of your own?

Oh Sorry I forgot when the Greeks were building Acropolis.... you were living in caves! [sarcastic.gif]

You forget that Stonehenge precedes the Acropolis by a couple of thousands of years... [sarcastic.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#14  PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010 14:21 
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wiz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Let me know when all this happens and I'll have a word with the British Museum for you.

Meanwhile I'll just sit here and wait for the sun to go out.


If it is a British Museum...........why displaying Greek artifacts.....?
Simply because they are LORD ELGINS Marbles...........Don't you have any of your own?

Oh Sorry I forgot when the Greeks were building Acropolis.... you were living in caves! [sarcastic.gif]

You can substansiate this statement..??????


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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#15  PostPosted: 08 Oct 2010 12:43 
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wiz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Let me know when all this happens and I'll have a word with the British Museum for you.

Meanwhile I'll just sit here and wait for the sun to go out.


If it is a British Museum...........why displaying Greek artifacts.....?


Silly question Yannis, try to make a better argument than that.

When Elgin saved the artefacts from almost certain destruction, Athens was ruled by the Ottoman Turks and therefore part of the Ottoman Empire. As much as this might distress you and millions of Greeks, it is a historic fact.
Until 1830, Greece only existed as a fully independant nation in the pre-Roman Hellenistic period.
In fact, Greece has spent much of the last 2,000 years under Roman, Byzantian and Ottoman control and not as an independant country. So, until Greece gained its independance from the Ottoman Empire - assisted by Great Britain, Russia and France and long after Elgin was given permission to remove the artefacts by the de-facto owners, the Turks, the Greeks had no rights of ownership over anything, including the Parthenon.

Furthermore, if the artefacts were returned to Greece, they wouldn't be restored to the Parthenon building but would be placed in a museum which would charge people to see them, unlike the British Museum which is free to enter. So the specious argument that the marbles should be restored to the Parthenon is nonsense and without foundation.

As I've explained to you previously on another forum, Greece lost and to the Victor go the spoils.


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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#16  PostPosted: 08 Oct 2010 19:48 
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Malcolm

While you ommited to comment about lots of historical time in Greek History, may I remind you that the Byzantium was one part too, till 1453, when the Constantinoupol fell to the Ottoman empire and for the next 400 years Greece was occupied.

The argument about the retun of the Parthenon Marbles is that Elgin did not have a permit to take the Marbles but only permission to make copies and that is well documented.

Not on the right place at the moment (I am on holiday) to direct you to certain British sources wher you could find out about it!

The Sultan never gave him any official permission and he bribed the Athens Turkish Governor........ your excuse about paying ticket entrance is not holding ground as the creation of te Museum was a condition banded around by teh British Goverment.


Shadow

Stonehenge has no artistic value...as the Parthenon Marbles. Historical yes. [tonque.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#17  PostPosted: 11 Oct 2010 22:43 
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wiz wrote:
The argument about the retun of the Parthenon Marbles is that Elgin did not have a permit to take the Marbles but only permission to make copies and that is well documented.


The Sultan never gave him any official permission and he bribed the Athens Turkish Governor

Stonehenge has no artistic value...as the Parthenon Marbles. Historical yes. [tonque.gif]



As the original documents referring to what the Sultan did or didn't give Elgin permission for have been lost, your argument is based on opinion rather than fact.
The only alleged surviving document is a supposed Italian translation which may or may not prove the case in either favour, depending on the way it translates certain words. So don't bother trying to prove a case that can't be proved.

If the Sultan never gave Elgin permission to remove the artefacts, why wasn't he prevented from taking them out of the country?
I believe he was given permission and that's why he was able to get them out without being challenged. As for your suggestion that Elgin bribed the Governor of Athens, show me proof of your allegation.

Stonehenge is much older and has far more historical importance than the Parthenon, which was just another Greek temple, and some would say more artistic value too. It's a matter of opinion...rather like your claims about Elgin's permission to save the marble artefacts from the Parthenon which would almost certainly have been destroyed by the Turks and used as building materials.

Sour grapes old Chap.


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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#18  PostPosted: 12 Oct 2010 17:28 
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Malcolm

It is well known fact the the Ottoma Empire has one of the best kept record office and if there was a Sultal permission to Lord Elgin, it would have been there..... but there is not!

As you say there is only an Italian translation by Galtieri presented as evidence for the ownaship of the Marbles......when they were offered for sale to the British Goverment!

There was an excellent program on C4 15-1 explaining al about teh historical facts and the proposition for the return...... I havean original copy of the program and you are welcome to borrow it to see it!

A question for you:

If the Germans had invaded the UK and then took away the Neslon column.......after the war would be right for the British to ask for it's return?


The Greeks don't ask for every archeological artifact to be returened... but only for 95 parts that were taken from the Parthenon. Most Nations which had a part of the Parthenon Marbles...have reurned them and nobody asked for the returen of the Aphrodide of Milos.


In return they have agreed to supply the British Museum periodically with new and more other works of art for exhibiting........ if they return the Marbles.!

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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#19  PostPosted: 12 Oct 2010 18:31 
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If we follow your example of Nelson's column to the logical conclusion, then every nation that ever took anything from any other nation should return it.
Consider this: Should the Germans be forced to compensate every country in which they destroyed buildings of historical importance during the war? Should the Russians be forced to hand over the countless artworks and documents they seized from other countries in the 20th century?
The list is endless.

It's a matter of opinion whether the Parthenon artefacts should be returned to Greece, not a matter of ownership. Greece did not own the marbles at the time of their removal, for the reasons I've already stated.

I know it's a matter of national pride for the Greek people but so are many things to many other countries.


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 Post subject: Re: THE PARTHENON (ELGIN) MARBLES
Post Number:#20  PostPosted: 12 Oct 2010 18:36 
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Malcolm wrote:
If we follow your example of Nelson's column to the logical conclusion, then every nation that ever took anything from any other nation should return it.
Consider this: Should the Germans be forced to compensate every country in which they destroyed buildings of historical importance during the war? Should the Russians be forced to hand over the countless artworks and documents they seized from other countries in the 20th century?
The list is endless.

It's a matter of opinion whether the Parthenon artefacts should be returned to Greece, not a matter of ownership. Greece did not own the marbles at the time of their removal, for the reasons I've already stated.

I know it's a matter of national pride for the Greek people but so are many things to many other countries.

You are wasting your time Malcolm, he is being so "Pig Headed" about this subject, you will never convince him otherwise...... [rolf.gif]
But good luck anyway.... [fingerscrossed.gif]


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