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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#11  PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011 16:31 
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Julian,

Very interesting counterpoint argument. I would like to know what is Russia doing about their declining population? What is Russia doing about the fact that millions of orphans are not properly integrated into society and given a chance at a normal life? We know that Putin is trying to discourage abortion as Russia has one of the highest abortion rates in the world. But what is he really doing for the low income people and the average people, so that they can earn more money and have a better life?? Putin has always been antagonistic towards the west. Just think of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs which could have been created in Russia if Putin and others had done a better job of stopping the corruption and lack of real respect for property rights which causes many western companies to not want to invest in Russia. You should be familiar that Ikea at one point got disgusted and was going to stop building and investing in Russia because every time they turned around they were hit up for bribes and faced numerous shakedowns when they refused to pay them. You should know the story of Dutch Shell Oil. Russia may have the largest oil reserves and other reserves of precious metals in the world, but they are extremely inefficient when compared with the west at extracting them. One only wonders how many billions of dollars have gone into the pockets of Putin and his cronies which could have helped the economic fortunes of average Russians.

Now imagine if it was Russia who had most favored trading status with the USA and not China (or as well as China). Imagine how many jobs that could have been created for average Russians. Then imagine that those average Russians could now afford to have children and to support them instead of abort them. Imagine if Putin really cared about orphans and instead of singing Blueberry HIll or whatever stupid song he sang, he put his money where his mouth is and spent some of his own billions which he has misappropriated from the Russian people to help get orphans off of the streets, out of the underground sewer areas and out of the state run orphanages which only misappropriate funds for their greedy directors instead of spending the funds to help the children.

Clearly Medvedev has a better vision for Russia and time will tell if the oligarchs and other elites will support him or if Russia will continue to live in the past. I said in another thread, sure Russia won The Great Patriotic War (I call it The Great Propaganda War) but Germany has won the economic war. Russia lives in the past while the west plans for the future and succeeds at it, which is evident in the overall higher standard of living in the west. Russia is certainly a great place for elites who know how to game the system, but what about the rest of the population which is shrinking??


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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#12  PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011 17:22 
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Rubicon wrote:
Julian,

Very interesting counterpoint argument. I would like to know what is Russia doing about their declining population? What is Russia doing about the fact that millions of orphans are not properly integrated into society and given a chance at a normal life? We know that Putin is trying to discourage abortion as Russia has one of the highest abortion rates in the world. But what is he really doing for the low income people and the average people, so that they can earn more money and have a better life?? Putin has always been antagonistic towards the west. Just think of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs which could have been created in Russia if Putin and others had done a better job of stopping the corruption and lack of real respect for property rights which causes many western companies to not want to invest in Russia. You should be familiar that Ikea at one point got disgusted and was going to stop building and investing in Russia because every time they turned around they were hit up for bribes and faced numerous shakedowns when they refused to pay them. You should know the story of Dutch Shell Oil. Russia may have the largest oil reserves and other reserves of precious metals in the world, but they are extremely inefficient when compared with the west at extracting them. One only wonders how many billions of dollars have gone into the pockets of Putin and his cronies which could have helped the economic fortunes of average Russians.

Now imagine if it was Russia who had most favored trading status with the USA and not China (or as well as China). Imagine how many jobs that could have been created for average Russians. Then imagine that those average Russians could now afford to have children and to support them instead of abort them. Imagine if Putin really cared about orphans and instead of singing Blueberry HIll or whatever stupid song he sang, he put his money where his mouth is and spent some of his own billions which he has misappropriated from the Russian people to help get orphans off of the streets, out of the underground sewer areas and out of the state run orphanages which only misappropriate funds for their greedy directors instead of spending the funds to help the children.

Clearly Medvedev has a better vision for Russia and time will tell if the oligarchs and other elites will support him or if Russia will continue to live in the past. I said in another thread, sure Russia won The Great Patriotic War (I call it The Great Propaganda War) but Germany has won the economic war. Russia lives in the past while the west plans for the future and succeeds at it, which is evident in the overall higher standard of living in the west. Russia is certainly a great place for elites who know how to game the system, but what about the rest of the population which is shrinking??

Rubicon

While I agree with you and in accordance with comments made by their President Medvedev, there is a lot of corruption in Russia. Unfortunately you are making some very wild and unsubstantiated accusations about Putin and in general for the country. Just pointed a couple of them.

I am not a supporter of Putin but I would like to be objective in our discussion.

It would be prudent, when you make such claims and accusations to provide some evidence otherwise your whole post sound like American Anti-Russian propaganda.

I am sure you will agree that corruption exists in every country and the USA is not immune of such practices. As about the standard of living may I also remind you that the USA has plenty of poor people too and can you explain why so many people in your country were against the free Health Care arrangements by President Obama?

Here in the UK we were appalled with your previous Government's inaction in New Orleans when the disaster of hurricane Catrina struck. Our TV screens were full of very disturbing images and we had many reports about the luck of action from your central Government from British reporters on the ground.

Just a couple of examples to show you that not everything is great in the land of plenty!

Your comments about the orphans obviously stem from that unfortunate event that an orphan was send back in Russia after adoption. Now if you want plenty of Anti-American propaganda take a look at the English version of "Pravda".

I hope from now on we can make objective criticism and discussion about Russia or any other FSU country and their people.


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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#13  PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011 19:28 
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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#14  PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011 19:40 
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Quote:
Here in the UK we were appalled with your previous Government's inaction in New Orleans when the disaster of hurricane Catrina struck. Our TV screens were full of very disturbing images and we had many reports about the luck of action from your central Government from British reporters on the ground.


Luckyspin,

I never said that all is perfect here in the USA. Far from it. We are in debt to the tune of 14 Trillion dollars, mostly caused by the ineptitude of Bush, Jr. IMO.

Everything now must be on the cutting block, including Universal health care.

Do you deny that Russia's population is shrinking?? Do you deny that Russia does not treat orphans properly (their passports are stamped orphan as a final insult) and does not integrate them into society?? Do you deny that Putin has not done deals with the west which could have improved the Russian economy for the average Russian, not just for the elites??

My comments about orphans have nothing to do with the propaganda of one returned orphan. I am far more concerned with millions of others.

If you think that criticizing Russia is propaganda, then when and how will Russia ever improve??

"A life lived unexamined is not a life worth living"

Russians should be free to form opposition parties, but they are not. Russian journalists should be free to openly investigate and criticize the government, but they are not.

Is this really American bias against Russia?? On the contrary, most Americans would like to see Russia become more progressive and to see the Russian people improve their lot in life.


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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#15  PostPosted: 21 Jul 2011 14:21 
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Rubicom

Let’s put things into perceptive.

Firstly according to your profile, appears that you have visited Russia twice (don’t know how long for) and some of us many more times than you, so we had more time to observe Russia, it’s people, customs, culture and many other things. Some of us are married to a Russian/Ukrainian woman and of course we do take a close interest of what is going on there. It is nice to see you too taking a keen interest in Russia and Ukraine but as suggested previously let’s try and be more objective with our views.

I am sure you know that the Russia Federation is in size the 1/5 of the world and has frontiers with 18 other countries. Now as you do realise that kind of situation is creating a huge security problem for them therefore their defence expenditure is very large part of their GDP. During their long history Russia has been invaded several times and as you know, during the WWII Russia has lost millions of their male population, which left a huge imbalance. We must not also forget the Afghan war too so the USSR/Ressian Federation has a declining population, which is not easy to reverse, as we may think.
Economy of Russia

Take a look to the Demographic information and statistics here and pay attention to the many numerous Ethnic Groups they have to deal with: Demographics of Russia

Russia doesn’t have a good record regarding Orphans treatment, according to the “Human Rights Watch” organisation.

Quote:
Kathleen Hunt (Author of the Human Rights Watch report)

The abuse in orphanages cannot simply be attributed to Russia's economic crisis. The problem of scarce resources does not justify the appalling treatment children receive at the hands of the state. It wouldn't take more money for Russia to change these policies immediately.

"The population of these orphanages is far too high and it's growing," said Hunt, noting that about 200,000 children live in state institutions in Russia. (No Millions as you say!)

Beginning with infancy, orphans classified as disabled are segregated into "lying down" rooms of the nation's 252 "baby houses," where they are changed and fed but are bereft of stimulation and lacking in medical care.

Did you know that many American companies have invested heavily in Russia, like Boeing for example, and many others in connection with oil and gas?

Also many other western and East Asian companies like Renault Cars (French), Nissan Cars. Etc have invested there.

Quote:
Bloomberg http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... Wcse_TEMu4

The study by the Foreign Investment Advisory Council was presented today before the start of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. BHP Billiton Ltd., BP Plc, Coca- Cola Co., Exxon Mobil Corp., Merrill Lynch & Co. and 46 other companies polled account for 40 percent of all foreign direct investment in Russia since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the council said.

Executives are more optimistic on Russia than anyplace else because of the stability achieved under Vladimir Putin, according to the survey. Russia, the world's largest energy supplier, has enjoyed average annual economic growth of more than 7 percent since 2000, when Putin became president.

Russia has an autocratic system, called “Managed Democracy”, which obviously suit and is accepted by the majority of the Russian people. Putin is very popular between the Russian people because he re-install confidence and pride to Russia Federation after the collapse of the USSR. Obviously the Amrican model of democracy doesn’t fit every country and people there have to find their own way and preference, on how to be managed.

Russia has improved quite a lot after the collapse of the USSR in 1998, has not external debt and life there got better, of course not as much as we would like to see and there are plenty of reforms that they have to make to come up to our western standards. But Rome was not build in a day!

Finally you will be surprised of how many critical comments you can read in some Russian newspapers and internet sites and blogs, but you must know Russian. Look back to on this forum “FSU news” and you will find plenty of critical articles from the “Moscow Times” and other sources!

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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#16  PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011 08:36 
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Rasboinik wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Julian wrote:
Sounds every so slightly exagerated to me, 1.25 million is almost 1% of the population


No it isn't.
It's 10% of the population.
[rolleyes.gif]


From the CIA World Fact Book

Russia
Population: 138,739,892 (July 2011 est.)

So 10% would equate about 13.8 Million and 1% would equate about 1.3 million.


I claim temporary insanity m'Lud, brought on by excessive Battenburg and Oloroso.

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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#17  PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011 09:12 
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Julian wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
So are we saying that Russia isn't corrupt?

I think the article is pretty well balanced and tells the truth.

I think those that try to portray the UK as being corrupt as Russia are either Russians or clinically insane.

Get a grip for goodness sake.

[rolleyes.gif]


Sorry Malcolm but if you think the article is balanced and tells the truth then it shows that you realy need to spend more time in Russia to understand her , maybe your opinions are based on watching movies, reading BS on internet and talking down the pub with your mates, have you lived and worked in Russia ?, do you know really how life is there or is everything you know based on preconception ?? Its articles like this that fuel peolpe like you to just write negative things about Russia, you don't think the world is full of corruption ? every city, every business has somebody trying to take money from it, wherever you are - go and live in Manchester and open a business there and tell me thats not corrupt and everything is perfect in the UK. The fact is most people in the west have no idea and cannot understand and appreciate how the Russian system works, everything there is so different to here, if you know how to play the system i'm sure its very good to make business there, otherewise Moscow would not be one of the biggest and most expensive and richest citys in the world.

Where ever i go on holiday Russians seems to out number other nations, why is this, they seem to be the ones with the money, i think things are better in Russia than they are here, maybe they have it right and its us who is wrong. I was in Thailand in January for 2 weeks with Russian friends who have good business's, it was full of Russian tourist, not once did any of them complain about corruption or business problems, again in June i stayed in a 5 star resort with many wealthy Russian business people, my wife was talking with many and again nobody spoke of problems. They would appear to be content. My wife is chief accountant for a big company in her town who also have an office in Moscow, i asked her yesterday about Krysha, she said 10 years ago it was a problem but nothing now in her town, the Police have it under control and certainly there is no mafia in this town anymore.

No way have 1.25 million Russians left because of corruption in the last 3 years, what i load of tripe, if they can't play the system they know then what chance of business success have they in a foreign land ??? all developed countries are full of Beaurocracy and i'm sure my American friends will confirm that the USA is just as bad as Russia for paperwork and in the UK we cannot move without being spied on and taxed !!! Malcolm get a grip son, your cacooned in a dream world, this country of ours is full of crime just like Russia. For sure some Russians will have left to get better paid jobs, for example i know that my wife who is very highly qualified in Russia as an accountant can earn 10 times more in Moscow than her home town and probably double that again if she could do the same job in the UK, so people will move if they have possibilty to ain better life, how many thousands have left this country to work abroad and getter better jobs ???, it not because of corruption.

I have lived in Russia for many months over the last 5 years, granted i have not lived in Moscow, but the small industrial town where my wife lives i have never seen any problems with crime, no evidence whatsoever of Mafia and really its nothing like what i percieved before i went to Russia. My opinion has changed a lot over the last 5 years, now i start to understand some things there i realise its not such a terrible place, granted i would not live there but no way is it as bad as some people would have you believe.

As many know i have had several visa issues whilst in Russia and been facing quite large problems, only once have i managed to bribe my way out of a situation and it was way harder than you could imagine and done in a very secretive way, the help was not volunteered by my wife or friends, i had to push the issue to make it happen and my wife was reluctant but she knew that i was in quite a tricky situation and even then i only gave 1000 rubles as a sweetner to get my visa registered and a small error overseen, for this reason i get the impression that its not as common practice as we all think and obviuosly anybody getting caught excepting a bribe would be in serious trouble and risk loosing their job. Of course i am only talking about this one town, maybe somebody can tell me that in their town in Russia corruption is rife.

I feel that the reputation of Russia needs to change, we should cut them some slack and not base all our opinions on the past, of course they need to do a lot more to give the west confidence and to encourage people there or do they ? do they really need or want us there ?? i don't think so, if they where desperate for money and our business they would do more to make it easy, they are clever people - they obviously know how to get money when they need it, i think it is Russia who laughs at us. Maybe we think that Russia needs us more than we need them.


Julian
For your information, "son", I've been to Russia many times and my wife is Russian. I live in her flat in Moscow, with her mother, whenever I go there and I can tell you that I've seen the effects of corruption and the way it works at close quarters. So please don't try to talk down to me.
I never said that there is no corruption in the UK or the USA or anywhere else. It's just that in Russia it is endemic. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in Russia knows what goes on but they've learnt how to deal with it, just as they learnt how to deal with the problems of living in the Soviet Union, instead of challenging it (no easy task I grant you).

If Russia wants the rest of the world to cut some slack, it must begin by dealing with the problem itself, but I see no attempt being made by anyone. Putin mumbled a few words abut dealing with corruption when he became President as did Medvedev but the sum total of their combined afforts has been zero, nada.

There is a huge divide between the very smal minority of wealthy Russians and the rest. These are the ones you see on holiday around the world. They consist of a few thousand families at most but their combined wealth is staggering. The middle class, which is a vital component of a democratic society, is tiny by comparison with Europe and the USA.

Until the wealth is more evenly spread, there is no chance of any progress as far as corruption is concerned because for many people, it's the only way they can make any money. Things won't change because there is simply no political will to do so.

The rule of law in Russia is almost non-existant for ordinary Russians, there is simply no recourse to justice at any level without huge amounts of money changing hands.

Be under no illusion, Russia may be an extraordinarily wealthy nation in terms of natural resources but since the demise of the USSR nothing much has changed for the vast majority of the population. Their healthcare system-which used to be free and pretty good, is now in a state of chaos, their education system is failing and universities are no longer free, there is very little social welfare and the wages for most people are not far from subsistence level.

Yes, we have huge problems in the UK, no-one would deny it, but in comparison, we have a far better life, as do the Americans, even though both nations are mired in debt.

There is no doubt that many young Russians see that the only way out of their predicament is to leave, and that's just what they're doing. There are thousands of them in London, living, working, going to University, enjoying a far better way of life. The one thing they appear to have in common when you talk to them is that they never stop being Russian and they love their country. Something a lot of British people seem to have lost.

But that's a different debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Why young Russian entrepreneurs are leaving Russia in dr
Post Number:#18  PostPosted: 23 Jul 2011 19:24 
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Luckyspin wrote:
Rubicom

Let’s put things into perceptive.

Finally you will be surprised of how many critical comments you can read in some Russian newspapers and internet sites and blogs, but you must know Russian. Look back to on this forum “FSU news” and you will find plenty of critical articles from the “Moscow Times” and other sources!

[drinks.gif]


I think you may be interesting to [read1.gif] this site in English. Very interesting information about a summer palace in Crimea.........

‘Ruleaks’ Posts Pictures of ‘Putin’s Black Sea Palace’

[drink-coffee.gif]

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